Talk:Catherine Howard

Duke of Grafton, in Tudor times?

"On the 29th [August 1540] the Duke of Grafton arrived for a Council meeting."

Really? According to Duke of Grafton there was no such title before 1675. Or is that article seriously mistaken? Harfarhs (talk) 20:53, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Margaret Douglas

On this edit, I'm not sure Margaret Douglas couldn't have had her portrait painted while in the Tower or Syon; she was allowed correspondence and gifts from the king at about the same time, and Syon complained about her rather worldly train of people and activities. The portrait also looks pretty penitent, even without what is probably a Holbein portrait miniature frame whose back depicts Lot's wife turning to a pillar of salt. I've tentatively clarified, given a more precise reference, and restored it. If there is something I don't know which makes this potential identification really unlikely or impossible, please let me know, and of course I'll remove it. HLHJ (talk) 00:18, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

The subject of the Toledo portrait was twenty-one (not twenty) years of age. Margaret Douglas was twenty-one from 8 October 1536 until October 1537 while she was imprisoned, first in the Tower then (from November 1536) at Syon. During this time she was in disgrace, for having become secretly engaged to Thomas Howard without Henry VIII's permission (a serious offence). Bear in mind that the king had no male heir until Queen Jane Seymour gave birth to a son on 12 October 1537. Margaret was finally released on 29 October 1537. Thomas Howard died in the Tower two days later. When his son, Edward, was born, the king convinced himself that Margaret, like his daughters, was illegitimate. Thus rendered harmless, she was restored to favour. It would have been extraordinary had Margaret Douglas been permitted to have her portrait painted during her imprisonment. Moreover, after her arrival at Syon, Margaret couldn't afford to pay her servants or provide food and drink, let alone cover the not inconsiderable expense of a portrait by Hans Holbein!

"On the bodice of her gown, is a brooch from which hangs a circular pendant with a diamond at the centre and a biblical theme: Lot with his family, guided by an angel, fleeing from Sodom. To the left of the central gem is Lot’s wife who was turned to a pillar of salt because she disobeyed God and looked back to Sodom. A design by Holbein for this pendant survives in the British Museum."

British Museum number SL,5308.25. Medallion of Lot with his family, guided by an angel, fleeing from Sodom, one of ten designs for medallions, from the ‘Jewellery Book’. https://research.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=720738&partId=1

Pendant jewels with a classical or biblical theme were popular with ladies of the Tudor court, for example Lady Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Lee_(lady-in-waiting)#/media/File:Workshop_of_Hans_Holbein_the_Younger_-_Portrait_of_Margaret_Wyatt,_Lady_Lee_(1540).jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.99.67 (talk) 03:29, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

God bless you for this comment. 216.154.5.238 (talk) 00:19, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Cleves/Howard miniature debate

A lot of dubious claims have been surfacing about the miniature of Katherine being Anne of Cleves with poor evidence other than resemblance and an contemporary testimony. I’ve already sent in a request to get this page protected because of them. Dancingtudorqueen (talk) 14:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Pregnancy?

I think at some point there was a false pregnancy. Oric22 (talk) 06:21, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Name

Catherine of Aragon should be Catherine, because her name was Catalina. Catherine Parr was most likely named after Catherine of Aragon. Catherine Howard should be referred to as Katherine, seeing as we're not sure if she was named after Catherine of Aragon. Joyce Howard didn't have the close relationship with Catherine of Aragon that Maud Parr enjoyed- there's no reason that Katherine should be called Catherine, seeing as Joyce probably never even worked for Catherine of Aragon.

True, many women were called Catherine in 1520s England, but none so prominent as the queen. There are no close relatives that I know of called Catherine in their family. Yes, there are no relatives called Katherine either, but the Howards were most likely Roman Catholics. Katherine was a name brought from the Crusades, therefore the "Holy Land". Joyce and Edmund Howard would have named their daughter after a saint.

Hence, she's Katherine. If not for all usage, then at least to differentiate from Catherine Parr and Catherine of Aragon. If they're in the same sentence- Catalina of Aragon, Katherine Howard, and Catherine Parr. Oric22 (talk) 16:56, 12 June 2023 (UTC)